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| @malMaxi I think it would be important for you to understand how I approach critical criticism. If there is a mismatch between how I feel and what the anime is trying to make me feel, I then try to understand why it didn't make me feel that way. The most impactful emotional experiences I've had with media have been after a prolonged period of investment before I feel the need to 'care'. For example, Made in Abyss kept a sense of foreboding danger for 6 episodes while endearing me to the characters before it seemingly delivered on that sense of danger. This turned out to be a fakeout and reinforced the idea that 'the danger will always never be serious' in my mind. When it actually delivered on the tension it had been building for 10 episodes, it left me feeling empty for an hour afterwards. Similarly, my favourite anime, Steins;Gate spends half it's runtime getting you invested in the characters before hitting you with anything that would be particularly 'emotional'. My favourite anime from last year, Yagate Kimi ni Naru, also spends more time developing the intricacies of the main two characters personalities before trying to get me to feel anything. Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that having a longer period to allow you to get you attached to the characters is better. There have been some exceptions to the rule, though, like Monogatari. In the case of Monogatari, however, each of the characters is so full of personality and nuance that gets displayed within the episode they are the focus of. After listening to two characters talk for 10-20 minutes straight, it manages to leave a strong impression on me. In addition, Shaft's amazing presentation skills enhance the 'experience'. Like I said in my first response, I think media should make you feel like you're experiencing the thing it's portraying. Example https://youtu.be/grPp0x18QtI Furthermore, unlike Shield Hero, this is just the start of the relationship and it gets developed even further over time. In the same way, Redline is such a technical marvel that the style outways the minimal substance of the movie. https://sakugabooru.com/data/c00a1ecd1e74399a4589869f32a503e2.mp4 An example of a large amount of growth in relatively short amounts of time would be Princess Kaguya. The visuals are beautiful and impactful by themselves but, every development is developed over the right course of time. Where Shield Hero pans over the still image of a scene, Princess Kaguya will animate that stage of development fully. In short, time and presentation are extremely important to me. If an anime isn't going to spend the time developing the characters, what it does show should be impactful through the audio-visuals. I can't say anything other than my opinion - I find it jarring, so I criticise it for being jarring. If you don't consider Raphtalia's development to be rushed between ep2 and 3, then I doubt any further conversation on the topic will go anywhere. If you can point out what you find to be depth in the characters, that would be nice. As for more specific criticisms, if they had shown Naofumi trying to stay positive after the betrayal and realising he needs to be more pragmatic over the course of episode 1, I would be able to accept it better. I can not, under any circumstances, accept Raphtalia going from traumatised to emotionally stronger than Naofumi over the course of 2 weeks(?) in-universe and 20 minutes of screen time. It just doesn't work for me. |
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| There's not much I can say about this episode that other's haven't already said. That being said, I think I can say that this dumpster fire of a show reached it's lowest point this episode. Similar to what many people expected, this show was very glaringly going to be a cliche'd trope-fest when the trailer first came out, and it ended up being exactly that. However, the show was entertaining at the start. The key word is "entertaining." It's really easy for people to ignore the flaws of a show when it's entertaining, but once it stops being so, the horrible flaws become very apparent. My entertainment value has been dropping for the past 4 or so episodes and this episode is where it died. "Entertainment" is very subjective and can become lost on a viewer at any point in any show/movie, etc. Which is why I believe that someone can honestly watch a show in its entirety and believe it's an amazing show while someone else will watch it and hate it. My point is, it's completely fair to enjoy, hate, and criticize a show for all its flaws, but attacking someone for pointing out their love, hate, or criticisms of something seems very petty and ape-brained. At least these forums haven't devovled into the cesspool that is youtube comments. Also, I agree with DumpsterKing's thoughts on the previous post on how to make a show have more emotional impact, to an extent. (There are characters in a few titles that only show up for one episode that have immense depth and emotional impact) |
xfengxMar 2, 2019 4:57 PM
| Raphtalia is supposed to be the Shield Hero's Sword but since bird girl showed up I haven't seen her fighting very well. |
| The sword that takes life gives life |
| Naofumi rage reminded me of Ryner's Alpha Stigma rage in Legendary Heroes. Looking forward to see this in a full blown fight. Naofumi in the past episodes, belittled and wrongly accused, and now he's cleaning someone's mess. I wonder what's his next suffering xD |
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@malMaxi I think it would be important for you to understand how I approach critical criticism. If there is a mismatch between how I feel and what the anime is trying to make me feel, I then try to understand why it didn't make me feel that way. The most impactful emotional experiences I've had with media have been after a prolonged period of investment before I feel the need to 'care'. For example, Made in Abyss kept a sense of foreboding danger for 6 episodes while endearing me to the characters before it seemingly delivered on that sense of danger. This turned out to be a fakeout and reinforced the idea that 'the danger will always never be serious' in my mind. When it actually delivered on the tension it had been building for 10 episodes, it left me feeling empty for an hour afterwards. Similarly, my favourite anime, Steins;Gate spends half it's runtime getting you invested in the characters before hitting you with anything that would be particularly 'emotional'. My favourite anime from last year, Yagate Kimi ni Naru, also spends more time developing the intricacies of the main two characters personalities before trying to get me to feel anything. Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that having a longer period to allow you to get you attached to the characters is better. There have been some exceptions to the rule, though, like Monogatari. In the case of Monogatari, however, each of the characters is so full of personality and nuance that gets displayed within the episode they are the focus of. After listening to two characters talk for 10-20 minutes straight, it manages to leave a strong impression on me. In addition, Shaft's amazing presentation skills enhance the 'experience'. Like I said in my first response, I think media should make you feel like you're experiencing the thing it's portraying. Example https://youtu.be/grPp0x18QtI Furthermore, unlike Shield Hero, this is just the start of the relationship and it gets developed even further over time. In the same way, Redline is such a technical marvel that the style outways the minimal substance of the movie. https://sakugabooru.com/data/c00a1ecd1e74399a4589869f32a503e2.mp4 An example of a large amount of growth in relatively short amounts of time would be Princess Kaguya. The visuals are beautiful and impactful by themselves but, every development is developed over the right course of time. Where Shield Hero pans over the still image of a scene, Princess Kaguya will animate that stage of development fully. In short, time and presentation are extremely important to me. If an anime isn't going to spend the time developing the characters, what it does show should be impactful through the audio-visuals. I can't say anything other than my opinion - I find it jarring, so I criticise it for being jarring. If you don't consider Raphtalia's development to be rushed between ep2 and 3, then I doubt any further conversation on the topic will go anywhere. If you can point out what you find to be depth in the characters, that would be nice. As for more specific criticisms, if they had shown Naofumi trying to stay positive after the betrayal and realising he needs to be more pragmatic over the course of episode 1, I would be able to accept it better. I can not, under any circumstances, accept Raphtalia going from traumatised to emotionally stronger than Naofumi over the course of 2 weeks(?) in-universe and 20 minutes of screen time. It just doesn't work for me. The problem of the anime is that it tries to force our sympathy for the protagonist only by the unjust situation that had to suffer specifically by the work of Malty and the other heroes, but this whole situation is totally incongruous, they never justify their actions or the reasons for harming the guy that is supposed to save them, these characters only jerks, self-absorbed assholes makes the story; without them, we would be left with yet another story of a Japanese was sent to a land of fantasy doing missions, gathering women and powers, he could have a totally normal and peaceful life since no one else seems to have intentions of harming him or his girls who also have no problems because they are demihumans when they are supposed to be hated. |
RayReynolds said: @malMaxi I think it would be important for you to understand how I approach critical criticism. If there is a mismatch between how I feel and what the anime is trying to make me feel, I then try to understand why it didn't make me feel that way. The most impactful emotional experiences I've had with media have been after a prolonged period of investment before I feel the need to 'care'. For example, Made in Abyss kept a sense of foreboding danger for 6 episodes while endearing me to the characters before it seemingly delivered on that sense of danger. This turned out to be a fakeout and reinforced the idea that 'the danger will always never be serious' in my mind. When it actually delivered on the tension it had been building for 10 episodes, it left me feeling empty for an hour afterwards. Similarly, my favourite anime, Steins;Gate spends half it's runtime getting you invested in the characters before hitting you with anything that would be particularly 'emotional'. My favourite anime from last year, Yagate Kimi ni Naru, also spends more time developing the intricacies of the main two characters personalities before trying to get me to feel anything. Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that having a longer period to allow you to get you attached to the characters is better. There have been some exceptions to the rule, though, like Monogatari. In the case of Monogatari, however, each of the characters is so full of personality and nuance that gets displayed within the episode they are the focus of. After listening to two characters talk for 10-20 minutes straight, it manages to leave a strong impression on me. In addition, Shaft's amazing presentation skills enhance the 'experience'. Like I said in my first response, I think media should make you feel like you're experiencing the thing it's portraying. Example https://youtu.be/grPp0x18QtI Furthermore, unlike Shield Hero, this is just the start of the relationship and it gets developed even further over time. In the same way, Redline is such a technical marvel that the style outways the minimal substance of the movie. https://sakugabooru.com/data/c00a1ecd1e74399a4589869f32a503e2.mp4 An example of a large amount of growth in relatively short amounts of time would be Princess Kaguya. The visuals are beautiful and impactful by themselves but, every development is developed over the right course of time. Where Shield Hero pans over the still image of a scene, Princess Kaguya will animate that stage of development fully. In short, time and presentation are extremely important to me. If an anime isn't going to spend the time developing the characters, what it does show should be impactful through the audio-visuals. I can't say anything other than my opinion - I find it jarring, so I criticise it for being jarring. If you don't consider Raphtalia's development to be rushed between ep2 and 3, then I doubt any further conversation on the topic will go anywhere. If you can point out what you find to be depth in the characters, that would be nice. As for more specific criticisms, if they had shown Naofumi trying to stay positive after the betrayal and realising he needs to be more pragmatic over the course of episode 1, I would be able to accept it better. I can not, under any circumstances, accept Raphtalia going from traumatised to emotionally stronger than Naofumi over the course of 2 weeks(?) in-universe and 20 minutes of screen time. It just doesn't work for me. The problem of the anime is that it tries to force our sympathy for the protagonist only by the unjust situation that had to suffer specifically by the work of Malty and the other heroes, but this whole situation is totally incongruous, they never justify their actions or the reasons for harming the guy that is supposed to save them, these characters only jerks, self-absorbed assholes makes the story; without them, we would be left with yet another story of a Japanese was sent to a land of fantasy doing missions, gathering women and powers, he could have a totally normal and peaceful life since no one else seems to have intentions of harming him or his girls who also have no problems because they are demihumans when they are supposed to be hated. They can't live a peaceful life, Naofumi is forced to fight in the waves as shown to episode 3 that heroes and his party are transported to the place where the waves are. Remember that this is anime has 25 episodes, I'm sure that their motive will be explained later. |
WraithFury said: Naofumi rage reminded me of Ryner's Alpha Stigma rage in Legendary Heroes. Looking forward to see this in a full blown fight. Naofumi in the past episodes, belittled and wrongly accused, and now he's cleaning someone's mess. I wonder what's his next suffering xD Ryner's stigma is really OP and can wipe an entire army |
| To think that Naofumi who several episodes earlier had problems with those ball-like monsters, now faced a zombie dragon. Filo just can't cease to amaze me - her fighting style is not only strong and clever, but also very efficient. With some more skills and/or time, I think she would be able to defeat that dragon on her own, just by butchering him from the inside. "Curse Shield" was interesting. Naofumi was badass, but it's sad he couldn't control it and Raphtalia got hurt. :( About our main character, I'm glad he started to show his feelings and became more friendly and caring towards his companions (i.e. first and last scene of this episode), limiting a bit his "edgelordness". By the way, I like fresh look on some fantasy monsters. Instead of getting a living dragon or bone dragon, we've got a zombie dragon that is not seen so often in recent fantasy productions. |
hystar said: Aniteku said: 1. Naofumi has trust issues he thinks the entire world is against him so yeah he acts like an jerk 2.filo did see a dragon in ep 5.is common knowledge for filo race to hate dragons or did you skip ep 5? 3. Again naofumi has trust issues he only see raphtalia and filo has allies the rest of the world are his enemies so yeah he was willing to give everything to cure raphtalia if that what it took. So no he has no split personality he treats good its allies and is a jerk to his enemies like a normal human being is. 4.the other heroes think this is a game naofumi explained this even if was just 1 sentence. And the villagers and travelers came to the village to gather the dragon body parts like scales, Bones, fangs and teeth the doctor said so. the origin of the "plague" was the crystal they found in its body wasnt really the flesh. 5.him being a doctor is why people calling him the savior of the heavely fowl bc his potions with his shield enchant are better then the potions in the markets. Also did you say that having thouse small monster blocking the path was the reason why sword hero dint come? Where did you ear them saying that? He dint come becouse since he think this is a game why would he waist time to kill low lv monsters that give him no exp? If this are the reasons why you think the show is illogical and forced? it sounds to me like you dint even pay attention while watching this show, maybe you just rush it? and calling people that like this show that they have low iq meanwhile your reasons why you dint like this episode was clearly explained in this and previews episodes, wasnt even any hidden messages or bs like that. To me seams your the one with the low iq (no offence) or like i said you probably just rush watch all the episodes so you can here and join the "i dont like this anime team" if your going to criticize this show at least give us valid points why its bad 1. Thanks, because nobody knows that already. What's so significant about this that it had to be forced down our throats every single episode? We already know. The question is why he decided to act like one just to have others saying useless stuffs in the episode to make him likable? This shit has been recycled over and over it's redundant. 2. What the f are you on about, Filo was never hating that dragon in the race. Filo kicked the spear hero for belittling her, and afterwards she was laughing. If Filo hated that dragon she'd have eaten her before the race started like she ate part of the zombie dragon + the crystal(whatever it is). 3. Funny thing is the doctor hero somehow can't heal Raph but the villagers who can't even cure simple plagues can, and they barely did anything, Nao could have done the bandaging himself and just rub some holy water on her, it's barely anything compared to the medicine provided for the villagers. Also it's not even pure holy water, so it doesn't even matter. What's ridiculous is the scene when Raph got hit with the curse or whatever, she literally bounced up and fell back down 3 times, it's so retarded. The part where he started feeding the sick by himself and then acted like an asshole AND THEN show appreciation and thanked the villagers are what you called inconsistency. If he's acting like an asshole then be one, you can't be an asshole and feed the sick by yourself, it's beyond stupid. 4. If this is a game then even more so to come back and clear the minions to earn even more reputation, that's how games work, you earn reputation, you don't suddenly become busy when there's a whole village waiting to give you even more rep, and by being busy your reputation is now rotting. 5. Read 4. Your last paragraph perfectly showed your IQ score. Not only you got the Filo hate dragon part wrong, you also try to push the blame onto my opinion while being ignorant to all the flaws of the series from start to now. It's funny you didn't disagree with half the things I said like there should be consequences to activate the curse shield in order to add more depth into the already shallow story, or how Filo would suddenly look away midway through an attack just to get swallowed up, or the villagers themselves could have easily prevented the plague, especially with the sudden inject of gold thanks to tourists, they could easily hire peeps to do it for them. 1. He's maybe an asshole but his action speaks louder than words. Yep just like he said but there is more than that, remember when he said that "when did I called myself as a savior?". Basically he didn't want people to rely him that much. 2. Raphtalia mentioned that in episode 5 that Philolials have this hatred to dragons, so it's a matter of instinct, like cats and dogs. 3. Yep he can't heal Raphtalia because of the curse, the fact is Naofumi just notice that the curse's cure is holy water and he has no holy water in his items. 4. Basically Level < Rare Items for them, Rare Items = Stronger weapons, Stronger Weapons = Faster grinding levels. Actually Naofumi doesn't care about his reputation, that's why he disguises himself as a merchant to earn money instead of kill monster. He got careless in that plant thingy and accidentally revealed himself to the other villagers. When there's trouble there's money for Naofumi. The story is not really shallow for me tbh, like Filo getting distracted because Naofumi calling her, that's a miscalculation for Naofumi, the villagers cant easily prevent that plague because they can go near the dragon, heck even adventurers die over DPS because of the poison, refer to Raphtalia's status at that time, she's poisoned so she can't do anything. |
malMaxi said: Well, duh? It's okay to not pay attention, you just need to be upfront about it. "This show didn't do enough to make me pay attention" is a much stronger position than "OMG BAD WRITING !!!!!111!1!1one!!" I didn't say I wasn't paying attention, just that I could see why you made that accusation. |
| @malMaxi I don't think this conversation is going to go anywhere, seeing as we clearly have different values and ways of approaching criticism. I don't care about the entire work unless I feel engaged enough to finish it. I'm currently not likely to watch the next episode of Shield Hero, so I don't really care where it's going. I'm mostly trying to analyse why I don't care, so my criticisms reflect a lot on my specific taste and the way I like stories being told. I don't think I've put any expectations on Shield Hero that I don't put on any work of fiction I consume. I don't particularly like having a show present me with a strong emotional beat within the first episode as I rarely care. The way you analysed the episode is also not particularly helpful. I do not have the mental capacity to be putting that much effort into thinking about why every little thing happens in an anime - if it doesn't stand out for me on the first watch I'll dismiss it. I already find it relatively hard to sympathise with people, so I'm going to need something stronger to care about a fictional character, which is probably why Senjougahara's introduction works so well for me. Monogatari creates it's own unique kind of setting where almost anything can happen visually and it doesn't seem to break suspension of disbelief. As if the psyches of the characters are leaking into the environment. Conveying what characters think and feel like through visuals is what i love about animation as a medium and Monogatari does this perfectly. The basic premise of Monogatari is absurd - so by presenting it as absurd it somehow makes it seem perfectly legitimate. Nisio Isin is a highly self-indulgent writer, so he tends to write long dialogues of mostly unimportant things but, this all contributes to the character of his works. They make his work distinctive and just so happen to often align with my sensibilities. To properly convey this with visuals, they need to be as random and nonsensical and occasionally deep as Nisio's own writing and it just works for me. You also say that you need to take the entire work into account but, the number of times I noticed how the seemingly random visuals and dialogue meant something more in the context of the arc and in the grand scheme of things while rewatching it is insane. Nisio's writing and Shaft's visuals appeal more and more to me as time goes on because Monogatari was written from the same place as I'm in now. It was Nisio's response to all the crappy, low-level harem LN's that were getting published at the time. As a result, it took several tropes to the extreme, subverted them in interesting ways while also, at its core just being a story about flawed and incredibly complex characters dealing with trauma. Considering how rare it is for shows to do interesting things with their visuals, Shaft is a godsend. I kind of went on an unnecessary rant there but, my point is that Shield Hero just doesn't align with my personal preferences of storytelling and visual presentation. I can't judge a story from a perspective I don't relate to and it wouldn't be helpful to me. Having read the LN up to what would be the end of episode 1. I'd agree that the anime is superior. The difference being, I find the LN painful to read and the anime watchable up till episode 5, where both the content and execution were lacklustre. What does Shield Hero do for you that makes you say it's worth the time? |
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| [quote=Cleckeroo message=57058952] RayReynolds said: They can't live a peaceful life, Naofumi is forced to fight in the waves as shown to episode 3 that heroes and his party are transported to the place where the waves are. Remember that this is anime has 25 episodes, I'm sure that their motive will be explained later. But nobody tells him he has to fight, he can flee if he wants |
| [quote=RayReynolds message=57065009] Cleckeroo said: RayReynolds said: They can't live a peaceful life, Naofumi is forced to fight in the waves as shown to episode 3 that heroes and his party are transported to the place where the waves are. Remember that this is anime has 25 episodes, I'm sure that their motive will be explained later. But nobody tells him he has to fight, he can flee if he wants He can't go home he doesn't fight you know. Please pay attention to the dialogues your arguments are becoming more stupid than ever. |
| @malMaxi I'm on my phone right now and accidentally pressed cancel instead of submitting my response so I'll give the TL;dr. The way you talked about Monogatari completely dismisses everything else it does in an "oh, cool robot" fashion. The majority of the arcs in Monogatari relate to and resonate with me deeply on a fundamental level and the presentation just elevates that. So it seemed as if you weren't taking your own advice (no offence). I don't see the point in trying to take into account why people resonate with a work that I don't because the answer is either that they relate to it or are relatively easily influenced to emotion. So the result is me thinking it could have done so better for people who don't inherently relate or get emotional easily, so I usually put it on a mental shelf. |
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malMaxi said: TnY clearly has no interest in focusing too much on either the characters, or the visuals. That doesn't leave much else to focus on. @DumpsterKing has been echoing many of the problems that I have with the show, which I have seen brought up by others on MAL and elsewhere. This confirms that the criticisms of this series go beyond personal taste and are in fact getting at fundamental flaws, of which any series with have at least a few. |
| This went down hill fast. First four episodes were actually good and then it became generic/boring waifu bait. Starting to get SAO flash backs with these last few episodes. |
X3MReaper said: I cant wait to see what the Bow Hero fucked up so they have to go fix it XD Basically next time the heroes meet up Naofumi " ey can u guys stop fucking up so I dont have to clean up UR messes?!" xD Well the thing is, no one really knows what the bow hero has been up to because of conflicting intel. |
| This episode was alright. "Naofumi hates the world for taking filo away from her". **flashes back in time and we see Filo back when growing up from chick and we see the people naofumi hates.** and Naofumi is in rage mode... It seems the episode tried creating a drama to make the audience upset, the same kind of drama we got from episode 4 and yet it sorta fails to convey that level of feeling. Maybe because they skipped a lot of parts when Filo was growing up (not a Light Novel myself but now I can see why do some people complains about rushing that part) that I just don't feel invested when they showed that in flashback. |
| Filo's fake dead really scared me, but of couse she cant die that soon, but i am glad she is alive! Naofumi rage was really cool, i loved that! How can Naofumi refuse to sleep with Raphtalia! :o Double pouting was cute! |
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Hegar said: DumpsterKing said: I think it would be important for you to understand how I approach critical criticism. Shouldn't the discussion be about the anime instead of about you? Who would even write a long, long description of himself like that? Jesus. I think it would be more important to get more distance from these shows. I watched Made in Abyss and Stein's Gate - can't believe how you can have these Deep Thoughts about them. The thing any normal person would notice the most about Made in Abyss is that the writer is a pervert who keeps making up excuses to focus on the boy's penis, and apparently Japan is such a twisted country that no one in the company feels any need to change this. I wonder how absorbed a person must be to treat that kind of show as something to talk about in a normal way. Well, but I guess there are certain kinds of people who enjoy the opportunity they get in forums more than others. So, go on. I shall dutifully make notes about your personality in relation to anime along the way. 1. I'm talking about how I approach criticism so that @malMaxi can better understand how I approach criticism I feel it's important to know how someone approaches criticism to fully understand why you're disagreeing with them. It turns out we just have completely different values and ways of thinking so, arguing would be unproductive. 2. I'm able to look past ethical and moral issues in fiction so I can actually appreciate the work. It's not even like I was having deep thoughts about it - I was just describing how well it's structured. |
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malMaxi said: I'm probably not saying this right but, you are definitely misinterpreting it. When I criticised Shield Hero, I said what specifically bothered me and how it could have not bothered me. DumpsterKing said: @malMaxi I'm on my phone right now and accidentally pressed cancel instead of submitting my response so I'll give the TL;dr. The way you talked about Monogatari completely dismisses everything else it does in an "oh, cool robot" fashion. The majority of the arcs in Monogatari relate to and resonate with me deeply on a fundamental level and the presentation just elevates that. So it seemed as if you weren't taking your own advice (no offence). Well, Shield Hero resonates with me on a deeply fundamental way. Why is Monogatari resonating with you a factor, but Shield Hero resonating with me isn't? I can see how it makes the tools Monogatari employs better in your eyes than the tools Shield Hero employs, but what is even the point of criticising the show for not working with the kind of tools you prefer? That's like attacking a graffiti for not being an oil painting. I am taking my own advice in attempting to articulate my opinion on the show in something objectively measurable. I am not relying on just "this feels good to me, therefore, Nisio Isin is a genius". I will grant you that Monogatari probably deserves more than a simple dismissal of its story elements. Maybe one day I'll make a full writeup. I don't see the point in trying to take into account why people resonate with a work that I don't because the answer is either that they relate to it or are relatively easily influenced to emotion. So the result is me thinking it could have done so better for people who don't inherently relate or get emotional easily, so I usually put it on a mental shelf. Automatically assuming that the audience enjoying the work which you are not into are idiots or easily manipulated children seems to me like a very poor frame of mind for media criticism. At the end that's all analysis boils down too. How well it conforms to a person's specific critical values. This is why I tend to not engage with other perspectives - people can praise a show for being relatable for x andy but if that doesn't apply to me i"ll criticise it for not doing x and y to engage with people who do not inherently relate to it. I do not inherently relate to Nadeko from Monogatari but, Nisio managed to make me fully understand her perspective. I have never had anyone close to me die but Made in Abyss punched a hole in my heart and left me feeling empty for an hour afterwards. It really put into perspective what it means to lose someone. I probably shouldn't go on. Point is that if an anime can make me empathise with the character regardless of how relatable they are to me, I feel that it's fair to say that other anime could have employed similar techniques to do the same. You can't make an objective analysis of art because it will always be limited by the literal way humans can perceive and interpret things. It also completely ignores why people engage with art - which is completely subjective. Critical consensus only comes around when a majority of people happen to have the same opinion and is subject to change. Using your method of pointing out every action that has some meaning (no matter how small), I would imagine Monogatari would be at least twice as dense with meaning. I'm also not exactly sure how my actual criticisms wouldn't make it better. How would a more gradual change over episode 1 not benefit Naofumi's character? Seeing him gradually lose his positivity until he becomes cynical would be a good method of increasing the bond between the viewer and him. At the very least, it would bother fewer people about how fast he changed while keeping the change for the purposes of the story. How would Raphtalia having slower bonding time with Naofumi not benefit the realism or weight of their relationship? At the very least it keeps that change while mitigating possible complaints. In fact, it would probably be more impactful if the first time Raph declares herself as Naofumi's sword was at episode 4. The events of episode 5-7 could have obviously been about something more engaging and if Filo had been growing and bonding over the course of those episodes - more naturally fitting into the dynamic, then I imagine episode 8 could have had a better impact. At the very least you'd have essentially the same story with less room for complaint. Again, I could go on but, I think you get my point. This is why I said this level of disagreement is unproductive - you keep providing examples of why it works for you when my complaint is that it could have done more to work for me. Also, the ethics or morality of Made in Abyss loli/shota content is completely irrelevant to why I enjoy it or what I believe to be its main purpose, so why would I take it into account when discussing it? If it actually gave any arguments of its own in support or against it instead of sparking debates around it, then it would matter. As it stands it's a great horror adventure penned by a man who likes kids a bit too much. My problem with a lot of your counters is that you don't seem to recognise the subjectivity of your points. I'm reading a manga right now called Gleipnir. The quality of the writing is around the level of what I'd consider Shield Hero to be - the world and characters haven't been fleshed out much beyond the initial gimmicks (although the structure and pacing of Gleipnir are more to my taste). However, the series just happens to be about stuff I like on a conceptual level so I'd rate it an 8. Trying to be as unbiased as I can, they are both stories that execute well enough on their core appeal that the target audience likes it but, people outside of it can see a lot of ways it can improve. The only difference is that Gleipnir is a very niche title. There are themes and ideas, character motivations and story elements in both that could be expanded on better. Where I'm perfectly willing to admit this, you seem determined that, because it works for you, there isn't anything wrong. I actually should have asked this earlier but, what would you rate Shield Hero? What would you improve about it? |
DumpsterKingMar 6, 2019 2:11 AM
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malMaxi said: Huh? There is a lot of other stuff to focus on. It is just not things that are visible to you, because, as we have already established, you are simply not paying attention. "We" have not established anything of the sort. Get off your high horse. |
DumpsterKing said: My problem with a lot of your counters is that you don't seem to recognise the subjectivity of your points. This. @malMaxi thinks he is the sole arbiter of objectivity and that his views are rooted in completely factual critical analysis. I was having a similarly in-depth discussion with them via DM but it was too difficult to carry on in the face of someone who believes and acts like they have the intellectual high-ground, with the condescension to go with it. It's not worth the time or effort. |
| @malMaxi I am not against this as a possible approach, just as long as the entire approach is not limited to just this. Ultimately, when all a critic has to say about a work of art is bad things, this criticism isn't worth much, because saying bad things is not helpful in truly advancing the medium (which is the whole reason for serious art criticism to exist). If you are personally benefitting from this one-sided criticism by exploring the mechanics of your own fancy and connecting with other people through your shared distaste for Shield Hero - that's great :D. Do note, though, that in my eyes any show that can serve as a material for even that kind of advancement is already worthy of praise. After all, you probably didn't get that sort of mileage out of any of the 2018's mobile phone isekais (if you can even remember what they were called) :D I can give more balanced criticism. It's just that I don't find anything Shield Hero does particularly praiseworthy, with episode 4 actually being good. It plays around with ideas that have potential but doesn't do much with them. I think most of my criticism was constructive though and if I were talking to the author, could be taken on board. Isekai Smartphone was episode 7 level (of Shield) from episode 1 so I wouldn't know how much I could get out of criticising it because it would require rewatching it (and I'm not masochistic enough for that). Being watchable isn't exactly high praise though. The most I've gotten out of Shield Hero is an idea for a story based on being betrayed and used by the government. I've also been inspired by story ideas from most things I've watched, so that's not particularly special. I'm perfectly comfortable with objectivity in art being a pursuit, the end state of which i won't get to see in my lifetime. Actually, this is not that simple and requires further elaboration. But since it is also vastly offtopic, I'll put it into the spoiler tag :D More to the point, in my mind, the Monogatari series suffers from having a lot of moments that don't really combine into the grand meaning. A bit too much art for art's sake. I can, of course, be wrong. It is still entirely possible that Nisio Isin is indeed a storytelling genius and my problem with Monogatari is just a problem with some insufficiency of my own perception. If someone actually managed to break it down with my method, showing the lines of meaning in Monogatari as i shown them for Naofumi in ep.1, and achieving similar levels of density, then maybe that would actually cause me to change my opinion of the show. That's the beauty of pursuit of objectivity: you can actually be proven wrong. And, in having been proven wrong, you are then able to adjust your objective optics and discover entire new worlds that you previously couldn't see before. This is a much harder experience to get in the world of entirely subjective. I usually try to use better vocabulary and arguments than this but, objective measurements of art just sound so unsexy. The entire point of art is the personal connection or meaning it has to whoever looks at it. Let's say we can quantify that as a value - what does that mean for someone else? It's basically the same as our current subjective scoring system. How could you rate the objective value of something that means different things to different people? I can't fathom it and I don't want to because the day someone can say I'm objectively wrong about how I should feel or something similar is the day art dies to me. More to the point, Monogatari often benefits from having parts that don't contribute to the grand meaning. At the end of the day, these are 'people' with lives beyond the narrative focus. I appreciate the asides as it often provides insights into the characters that don't fit into what the main plot. I didn't enjoy Hanamonogatari as much as the rest of the series because it felt too dense with meaning and plot and could have used more art for art's sake to liven it up. Nisio isn't a perfect writer but, the ambition of his works is far beyond what 99% of authors are capable of. The problem with analysing Monogatari is that it is filled with double meaning, unreliable narration and the art direction leaves room open for multiple interpretations. When Senjougahara was falling from the stairs, why was the fall over-exaggerated from the novel? Was it purely aesthetic? It could represent how Araragi felt at that moment, emphasising his need to stop her from falling. It also highlights her helplessness over the situation. Monogatari has superfluous moments but, it is denser than most anime anyway. That would require a slow escalation of bad stuff happening to Naofumi and would result in Myne's betrayal having that much less of an impact. You've misunderstood me here, I meant a slow transition after the betrayal.This worked for me because it makes everything click in my head regarding Naofumi's mental state. But this doesn't work for you, because it is, ultimately, lacking in visual flair. It doesn't work for me because I don't like or relate to the characters. I even find Raphtalia's attachment to Naofumi forced because the amount of time they spent bonding, and the slideshow used to present it, isn't enough to convince me of the bond. A better comparison would be Grimgar that I watched recently. It takes its time letting the characters overcome trauma while keeping the plot going and handles the team dynamic better by having more natural relationships. I will agree with you on eps 5-8, with the caveat that the actual problem is that eps 5-7 don't actually really build up to ep. 8 in any way other than Filo growing up (ep.8 seemed fine to me other than that). Fixing this would require a rewrite of the source material, though, because it is just the same in there. Which means a show with an entirely different set of priorities (the anime seems pretty faithful to the source material so far). If you feel our discussion is pointless, I would say it is only insofar as wishing for the show that is not there is pointless. I know eps 5 - 7 don't build up to 8 but, if they had put more effort into Filo's character and Naofumi's prior to this then the impact of the fight would be better. While the visuals play a part, you're forgetting that my problems with the character's fighting still exist. I enjoy discussing with you. I just don't think it's going anywhere. Yeah, but moral implications make it that much more terrifying :D. And in ignoring these, you are certainly missing out. I'd even say objectively so. I'm only ignoring the author's obvious fetish parts. Considering what ep 10 did to me, I don't think I'm missing out by thinking about the morality of sexualised minors.My position, however, is that all of this doesn't make SH bad. It only makes it not as brilliant as it could have been imagined, and the question of whether what could have been imagined is even possible without basically rewriting the story is also not to be discarded. As someone interested I writing, I'm constantly looking for ways to convey my intent better, so I do it for other writing too. Trying to see what's the most I can make out of this setting, these characters, etc. Then there are writers like Nisio and Nakatani (Bloom Into You) that I can only sit back in awe at what they're able to do. If i were to just ballpark rate it with one number no expalantions given, i'd give it an 8.5. But then i realise that i wouldn't ever be able to justify it according to the review metrics i'm used to. The visuals and audio are probably 6 to 7, the characters are in the same ballpark. The story, after unfortunate eps 5-7, has tanked down to about 7ish as well. It is only my enjoyment of the show that remains at straight 10 :D I'm not exactly sure what you expect me to see in a show you can only rate at that level if I don't inherently relate to the subject matter. Like I said earlier: Gleipnir happens to tick a lot of boxes for me but, I'm not going to pretend it has much value beyond that. |
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| The curse/rage shield was cool, and I liked that Raphtalia was needed to break him out of it, but I wish the dragon was killed with it, instead of Filo doing all of it. I wish Filo wasn't there... Her getting eaten wasn't even suspenseful, anyone could have easily guessed that she would eat herself out or something like that. I hope we will have a longer and better fight soon. |
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malMaxi said: You are welcome to provide a factual rebuttal of my points and demonstrate that your interpretation of the show is entirely in line with what is actually in the show at any time. Until then, the high horse is mine :D Your notion that I am not paying attention is not factual to begin with. malMaxi said: Should i treat this as permission to publicisee our DMs? Because i am actually interested to see you further elaborate on how, in your absolutely not condescending view, i'm merely a victim of emotional manipulatoin by the show. What is there to elaborate on? I constructed a logical argument that you have so far failed to refute. You are in love with facts and objectivity, well there is an objective fact for you. |
malMaxi said: It doesn't work for me because I don't like or relate to the characters. I even find Raphtalia's attachment to Naofumi forced because the amount of time they spent bonding, and the slideshow used to present it, isn't enough to convince me of the bond. A better comparison would be Grimgar that I watched recently. It takes its time letting the characters overcome trauma while keeping the plot going and handles the team dynamic better by having more natural relationships. Well, maybe we can put a pin in this particular discussion thread until after I've read a bit of Gleipnir :D. Maybe it'll shed a bit of light on what I'm overlooking here. This part was talking about Grimgar of Fantasy and Ash and not Gleipnir. Though you might still get something out of it. |
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